Denver Collects Fines On Drivers Who Stop At Red Lights

DENVER (CBS4) – The city of Denver is bringing in thousands of dollars in fines every year by ticketing people who stop at red lights. They are ticketed because their tire goes over the white line that marks where the vehicle should stop.

The red light cameras at various intersections in the city will flash and the driver will be sent a $75 citation if the vehicle goes over the white line, even if the driver stops for the light.

“They are stealing money. Who has extra money to pay?” asked one driver.

“I think this is an injustice, it’s just completely unfair,” said another.

“I didn’t go through the red light. I just didn’t stop at the white line,” said yet another driver. “I feel it’s a frivolous charge. If an officer had been present, I would not have been given that ticket.”

That driver went to court to fight the ticket and lost.

According to the law, Steady red indication:

a. Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line but, if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown; except that

1. Such vehicular traffic, after coming to a stop and yielding the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection, may make a right turn unless an official sign is erected at each and every intersection where such right turn is prohibited.

2. Such vehicular traffic, when proceeding on a one-way street, and after coming to a stop, may make a left turn onto a one-way street upon which traffic is moving to the left of the driver. Such turn shall be made only after yielding the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed. No such turn shall be made if a sign is erected giving notice of any such prohibition at each and every intersection where such left turn is prohibited.

b. Pedestrians facing a steady circular red signal alone shall not enter the roadway, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal.

c. Vehicular traffic facing a steady red arrow signal may not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by such arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line but, if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to make the movement indicated by such arrow is shown.

d. Pedestrians facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal.
(Code 1950, § 508.6)

The pictures are reviewed at the Denver Police Photo Enforcement Division before a ticket is issued.

“When we review the violation image and the front tire is (only inches away from) the stop bar, we will not issue the citation,” said Denver Police Dept. Photo Enforcement Supervisor Ted Porras.

Porras said when a car stops over the line it can block the intersection, which forces pedestrians to go around cars or even get stuck in traffic.

Rudy Bettmann received a ticket and acknowledges being over the line.

“This is the photograph I received and it looks like my front tire was right on the back edge of this line,” said Bettmann.

He even took measurements and his own photos to fight the ticket, but he lost.

“Are these cameras to make money for the city or are they for safety?” CBS4 Investigator Rick Sallinger asked Porras.

“It is for safety,” Porras said. “If this was simply a money-generating machine, all that people need to do is follow the law and we wouldn’t have a reason for the program.”

CBS4 Investigator Rick Sallinger found most everyone who challenged the white line tickets in court lost. But he did find one judge offering a reduction from a $75 fine to $40 for a guilty plea. The reduction comes only after the defendant answers affirmatively to the judge’s question as to
whether they will drive safer in the future.

Another knocked down the fine to $50 if someone had to wait for more than an hour for their court hearing.

Denver City Councilwoman Jeanne Faatz has asked the photo enforcement department to give drivers a break.

“They feel if they blow through a red light they deserve a ticket, but if their wheels just inch into the white line and there’s no safety hazard around, that that’s being nitpicky,” said Faatz.

The city of Denver is promising a study on the effectiveness of its red light cameras.

Colorado Springs announced the end of its red light cameras just last week after studies showed they didn’t improve safety.

More from Investigates
Comments

One Comment

  1. Neil says:

    The have very short yellow lights so they can make more money. The public should show up in force to change the law. I drive all over the state. Denver’s lights go Yellow the to red immediately.

    1. Michael Feldman says:

      I moved to Denver last year and I can tell you there is no city with as poor of a traffic grid anywhere on earth, this place is the home of the four way red light and it would kill them to let anyone turn left with a blinking red. When I drive to work I am battling side street lights that turn red an instant a car pulls up, if you see a green light 1000 ft. a head you better floor it or you will be stopped for an unusually long light for a side street. Anyway no cop no ticket, its called judgement and I dont accept leaving that to a camera.

      1. Lock Jaw says:

        Government is out of control.
        Pull their funding the legal way…
        GOOGLE EXCLUDED INCOME
        You pay for these chains with your own money and labor.

      2. Always Independent says:

        Don’t feel too bad, In Santa Clarita CA, my son 19 just got a citation for sitting in a park with some friends after 9PM. All they were doing was sitting and talking. No alcohol, no drugs and no noise. Sheriff gave them a Stinkin $250 fine for being in a place thats supposed to belong to the people. Can’t wait for the next call from a law enforcement benevolent association to call looking for a donation.

      3. Old Army says:

        I live in Colorado, and second the thought that Denver is one of the ugliest, least intelligently designed cities in the nation. I avoid it at all costs. It is also the home to an entrenched political party that is desperately looking for any means to get more money to keep its overall funding levels sufficient to continue programs that support its political base. Read that however you want to, but this enforcement is not about safety, it is about generating revenue using the powers of the police state. One more reason to leave Denver to those who love income redistribution by any means possible.

    2. joe says:

      the public should ask for jury trials, that would start to tie up the court system and back log the traffic court, it would eventually get to the point that they have to stop with the BS fines or hire more people to work in the system, but they can’t because all the fine money will be tied up in court.

      1. chuck in st paul says:

        They don’t do jury trilas for misdemeanor traffic tickets. You can however make your court appearance and tell it to the judge. Good luck with that.

    3. joe blow says:

      thanks Obama. This is the hope and change we wanted!

      1. Rob Adkerson says:

        I want the man out of office as much as any rational person, but Obama is not responsible for the rules regarding whether or not you can go a few inches over the white line.

      2. J Topping says:

        Are you forgetting that Colorado is a Republican state? Obama had nothing to do with this. You need to address your state Republican Party about this.

      3. Karencolorado says:

        Wait…. you’re blaming Denver traffic cameras on the President? If you don’t like beling controlled and over-policed and stripped of your privacy… put the blame where it belongs… on the citizens of Denver who are declining to fight for those rights.

    4. Bob says:

      Question: Many years ago I worked for a community’s engineering operation. We had traffic engineering standards which dictated the length of the yellow light based primarily on the speed limit. Are Colorado’s and the city’s traffic engineering standards being applied correctly to these intersections?

      1. Mr T says:

        They(KCNC if I recall right) have checked this in the past and Denver unlike most cities in the metro area uses the minimum federal legal length of time. The find now that the rear end collisions has increased even in areas but it is about making money for the city. I stopped at the red light and backed up to be behind the line after midnight no cars or pedestrians in sight and even though I moved behind the line I still got the ticket.

      2. James C. Walker says:

        Yellow intervals should NOT be set per the posted speed limits, because posted limits are often well below the 85th percentile speeds of free flowing traffic under good conditions. Yellows should be timed for the ACTUAL 85th percentile approach speeds, that is IF safety is the real goal. Timing them for under posted speed limits IS the scam in many cites. If the posted speed limit is 10 mph below the 85th percentile speed (common), this makes the yellow about 0.8 seconds too short and THAT is what makes red light cameras profitable. See the science on our website. James C. Walker, National Motorists Association, http://www.motorists.org , Ann Arbor, MI

    5. JimBob says:

      OK You either misjudged the line or barely let the car creep slightly over it. You made a real effort to stop but everyone knows the law. Get out of your car and check the line. If you are on the line or over it then I would go ahead and proceed through the red light. You have already broken the law and will be ticketed for the full infraction anyway. Side impact airbags are highly recommended for this maneuver.

      1. Denise says:

        I like this. Everybody at the line get out and look. That should make a statement.

    6. Jawal says:

      White liberals own CO and now you stupid citizens in the state of CO will begin to see the to ‘o’ become an ‘a’ meaning you will be CA light. Vote these butt monkeys out off office and get take your state back. Apathy breeds tyranny.

      1. DaveLCAC says:

        Well said! They believe government control is how life should be maaged. With that mindset, they promote and increase government at every turn. Then, they must have “creative” ways to get funds to feed the beast.

    7. Joe Potosky says:

      Reminds me of Andy of Mayberry and Barney Fife. All they need now is Gomer Pyle running around yelling citizens arrest, citizens arrest.

    8. matt says:

      I hope the city installs camras at every intersection. You act like this a victimless crime. when infact motor vehicle accidents are the sixth leading preventable cause of death in the United States (45,800 people died and 2.4 million were injured in 2005).

    9. Barry Sontoro says:

      Don’t reply to the mailed ticket. It’s not certified mail. You opt in when you reply.

      Second get a license plate cover from ebay and keep it in the down mode when coming to one of those camera intersections. No plate no ID. or go to hide plates dot com

  2. Scoot says:

    …and so it begins. Look to the UK for what’s next, they’ll be giving us tickets for anything and everything with these illegal, unconstitutional unmanned cameras of theirs. Got 1776?

    1. yoohoo says:

      nothing a couple of well placed rounds could not solve…

      1. buckeyeman says:

        My thoughts exactly. A low velocity (22 short) rifle with a telescopic sight could knock these cameras out. One would have to be careful because of the 360 degree view that is provided by having cameras in all directions. Where is the patriot with the cojones to end this socialist blight?

      2. M.B. says:

        No…I have beat these Redlight tickets several times. It is really easy. Just write them the folowing: “I will CONDITIONALLY ACCEPT your charge upon presentment of a Verified Complaint (signed under the penalties of Perjury)”. [they can NEVER do this] “Furthermore, I would like to know from you how it is possible that your REDLIGHT corporation is allowed to impersonate a Judicial Officer and to make Judicial Determinations?” [ALL REDLIGHT CITATIONS ARE FRAUD) IF they threaten to take away your DL or ruin your credit, then conditionally accept their OFFER TO CONTRACT upon payment of $250000.00. [This keeps you in Honor and them in Dishonor]

        Lastly, you do have the option to REJECT any offer to contract within 72 Hours in accordance with the federal fair debt collection practices act. It doesn’t matter if it is a cell phone contract, mortgage contract or a Citation.

      3. Jonny Ninja says:

        It’s funny you guys say that. I think about it every time I come to an intersection with one of these unconstitutional cameras. I look at the distance from me to the camera and I think “I nail targets all the time with my glock from this distance at the range.” If enough people do it, what can they do?

    2. RF Delderfield says:

      As a tourist I got a parking ticket in Statford Upon Avon, England while parked in a private pay lot. I fully paid and returned well within time, but inadvertently put the payment stub the wrong side up on the dashboard (confusing 3″ piece of paper full of colored numbers and digital coding on both sides). Anyway, 3 weeks later back in California I get the nastiest $157 collections notice threatening to ruin my credit and possibly have the DMV suspend my license! That is where we’re headed anywhere in the world. I’ll never go back to England btw, that and the TSA made my little kid cry in terror at an attempted groping.

    3. JohnDave says:

      This is a idea who’s time has not come. I’ll just put a shield on my
      plate that blocks photographs, then good luck SOB’s.

    4. JackDonlan says:

      Need to Occupy City Hall and fill the room with protests.

    5. Francisco D says:

      Why aren’t we voting out the criminals in our local governments that are putting these cameras in?

      thats the real question.

      1. David Weiser says:

        Cause no one but criminals are allowed on a ticket.

    6. Pagoda says:

      All of you suck. Learn how to drive. Those lines are there for a reason. I am so ticked when people cross the line. You know that if you see a yellow light, you have enough time to decide whether or not to go through the intersection or stop. If not, you are not paying attention. Yes, it sounds like big brother, but I know that most cops won’t do anything about it. This way, they can catch you people who do this. Learn how to drive.

      1. Paul says:

        Hey Pagoda, did you know that lights run a full timing cycle if there is no idication of a vehicle stopped at the light? Did you know that the US Post Office sent out a notice to all their drivers to move their vehicles front bumper into the white line so the timer would shorten, thus saving GAS! Yes, thats right, the timer goes full cycle even if you are the only driver at a light, but if the sensor on the light detects a vehicle, it shortens that duration. By the way, you are a socialist. And, I can say that because I have spent 3 different times living in socialist/communist countries in past, have you?

    7. David Weiser says:

      I don’t understand how you can tell from the driver’s seat how many inches your tires are away from the line. This is stupid, how are people losing this fight in court? This obviously a desperate ploy to generate cash for badly cash-strapped city. I’m waiting for the day when you get a ticket for the way you walk in and out of the front door of your house. Maybe then the cowardly American public will stand up in a way that will get results, not like the Occupy this or that morons. Until then, we will get what we deserve from our Bullying American Government

    8. spike says:

      This is OUR governemnt that is doing this. Occupy the city chambers until they remove the cameras. Demand they remove the cameras. They used OUR money to install these cameras. We do not approve of such expenditures, do we? The government is supposed to serve the people, not the people serving government. The people did not approve these installations, did they? Demand they be removed!

    9. TW says:

      Go out and paint over all the white lines. Problem sovled

    10. JOHN says:

      In my town [assume others], the cameras are owned and operated by a PRIVATE company. They send the city their cut of the loot. They like to hire ex-sheriffs and such to keep the scam going. Nice work if you can get it [but highly un-American in terms of freedom from harrassment and tyranny].

      First they go up at the most dangerous intersections [for your protection]. Then they go up everywhere else in order to maximize the loot. Vote the cameras out!

    11. Private Person says:

      Dismiss the photograph. The company taking the picture doesn’t appear to be a licensed private investigation agency. They are engaging in surveillance activity that requires a license. No license means it may not be admissible.

  3. garygoode says:

    Well, now you know—-the city has all it’s employees on the same page. If you don’t find the citizen guilty of anything, even the most minor of violations, you will not get paid!

    So, you see the reasoning of all these frivolous tickets.

    I wonder what what would happen if everyone started buying as much as they can on craigslist.com as in retaliation to the cities heavy-handed approach to getting their pensions funded.

  4. Christian says:

    This is an outrage. The US Constitution guarantees the right to dface your accusers in court. These “traffic judges” are simply scam artists that will find you guilty no matter what. It is a total outrage.

    The only way to get out of one of these is to pay an attorney to contest it for like $150. I personally rather pay a lawyer $300 to fight the damn thing then give these pirates any of my money.

    1. Nick says:

      According to the story, I believe the individual faced his accuser in court and lost.

      1. Dan Schwitalla says:

        So they brought the camera into the court to testify?

      2. Phantom II says:

        No, Nick, he didn’t face his accuser. He faced a tax collector, a meter maid in a black robe.

      3. Doc5 says:

        Face his accuser?seriously? Are you that obtuse?
        They brought in the camera as someone noted. Sheeple!

      4. bob says:

        Should people get a speeding ticket for going 41mph in a 40mph zone? Safety laws are supposed to protect people, not generate revenue

    2. MOS was 71331 says:

      “The US Constitution guarantees the right to dface your accusers in court.” Was that a Freudian typo? There are certainly times when it would be attractive to d[e]face your accusers.

    3. USArmyCombatMedic says:

      Or you could, you know, just stop before the line. How hard is that? Tell me. Do you need new brakes? What is so effin hard about stopping a line?

      1. Jonny Ninja says:

        You miss the entire point. It’s a matter of principal. IF we accept this, what’s next? Cameras in everyone’s car? Judging your mood and intentions? Maybe it emails a ticket to the cops saying that you have road rage, and they ticket you. The fact is, these damn things go against the constitution in every way, shape, and form. Just like forced blood withdrawals on DWI suspects. Does that mean I think that people should drive drunk or run red lights? No, it doesn’t. It means that to be found guilty of any crime, there should be a HUMAN accuser (cop) who has gathered enough evidence to prosecute you within the bounds of the constitution and bill of rights. That is not what is happening anymore. It’s wrong. We are being turned into a police state, slowly but surely. I am not a conspiracy theorist, either. I don’t subscribe to the Alex Jones line of thinking, but it doesn’t mean that I am oblivious to obvious violations of my rights as an American.

      2. slydog says:

        Well if you cross the line before the light turns red you have entered the intersection on yellow. According to state law if you enter on yellow you may proceed through the light.

  5. Sentra says:

    quit your whining. Any recently licensed teenager will tell you that if your cross the line that yes – you have run it. The line is there for a reason. Maybe if you would pay more attention, and actually OBEY TRAFFIC LAWS you wouldn’t get such tickets.

    1. Sam E Moore Jr says:

      If I were You would be the last person on Earth to know .
      One easily suspects .. Your Lights are on but ain’t no body at home .

  6. Christian says:

    This is an outrage. The US Constitution guarantees the right to face your accusers in court. These “traffic judges” are simply scam artists that will find you guilty no matter what. It is a total outrage.

    The only way to get out of one of these is to pay an attorney to contest it for like $150. I personally rather pay a lawyer $300 to fight the damn thing then give these pirates any of my money.

    BTW, beating a red light means going PAST the line, not a bit on top of it. This is a tax scam. Denver and Boulder do this…. why? Because they are run piece stupid leftwing Democrats, that is why. You don’t see this nonsense in Conservative areas like Douglas County or The Springs.

    1. Idiotmitten says:

      They are scoring this like football. Breaking the plane is a violation (or score).

    2. Ray In Colorado Springs says:

      The last paragraph of the article says it all. I’ll quote ist for you below:
      “Colorado Springs announced the end of its red light cameras just last week after studies showed they didn’t improve safety” Colorado Springs is in the most conservative county in Colorado.

  7. Robert Mino says:

    The injustice is that few people are aware of this There should be a sign at the line stating STOP HERE ON RED. They do, criminally conspire and set people up with the short yellow and a timeing from the previous light that makes this happen more often then it normally would. People who brake hard for a red light rather then running it are to be commended not punished.It is way more serious to run a red then to stop short in the crosswalk but these bean counters don’t understand that! If you stop short of the line and pull ahead to see enough of the traffic comming from the left to safely turn right you have 75.00 stolen from you by these trewps.

  8. Jeremy Hymes-Balsley says:

    You know, I hear this argument alot. Photo-enforced speed traps and red light cameras are ‘money grabs’ and are somehow unconstitutional, and what they’re getting you for are ‘technicalities’ that don’t happen otherwise. Let me just put the lie to this right now.

    I’m a pedestrian here in Denver. I cross many intersections on foot, and when I come up to those intersections, I notice what drivers do on various light colors. On Colorado, every time I see a yellow light, the most often response I see are drivers speeding up to fly through the intersection. In fact, I even see a few cars blow through a red light right after it turns red because people sped up to get through it. It doesn’t matter how long the yellow light is, and cars feel they have a right to pull up into the intersection. Steady red light, car pulling up to a right-turn, or even to a left turn? They’ll frequently pull right into the crosswalk, and some of them even have the gall to return my dirty look when I walk up to them, then around their car, parked in the path I have to walk, forcing me close to cross traffic.

    So lose the high and mighty attitude that this is just some sort of cash grab by Denver. it’s not. it’s designed to protect people like me and my wife from people like you who think they have the right to pull their cars up right to the intersection like some drag racers on the Indy 500. You don’t want the fine? Follow the d-mn law. Thank you very much.

    1. Mike says:

      I understand what you are saying, “Follow the law.”

      So, do you report taxes on an item you sell at a yard sell? Why not? It’s the d-m law? We could go on all day.

      So, let’s look at the main problem here: The shortened yellow light.
      Car and Driver magazine did an excellent job covering this issue several years
      ago. They found that the slice of money the city receives by contract with
      the camera vendors increase as the yellow light time decreases – in other
      words, the more likely they are to write tickets and generate volume, the bigger
      piece of pie goes to the county. It’s a rip off, plain and simple.

      For this to be about safety, they would have to socialize this with commercials,
      get everyone on board, then implement the program in phases at various
      intersections – and – INCREASE the yellow light time so people aren’t slamming
      their breaks at yellow. The Car & Driver study found that wherever the cameras
      went up, there was a huge spike in rear end collisions.

      I respect pedestrians, and we are all both drivers and pedestrians.
      But to think the streets are fundamentally built and maintained for pedestrians
      is false. This needs to be implemented so it can be followed or it’s just a
      dishonest way to get money – I hate to break it to you, but they don’t care
      about your safety, sir.

    2. Idiotmitten says:

      Drag racers don’t race in the Indy 500. Drag racers race on a drag strip.

    3. bombshelterbob says:

      spoken like a true constipated socialist JHB. Everybody is supposed to treat you with respect, but you get to have your snarky little attitude toward them because you’re “special”. You people kinda remind me of the tourists in Yellowstone that walk to take the pictures of the Buffalo and get excited when the Buffs don’t act in socially responsible ways! Cars and Buffalos just do what they do, just sayin.

    4. POed Peasant says:

      Jeremy says:

      “So lose the high and mighty attitude that this is just some sort of cash grab by Denver. it’s not. it’s designed to protect people like me and my wife from people like you who think they have the right to pull their cars up right to the intersection like some drag racers on the Indy 500. You don’t want the fine? Follow the d-mn law. Thank you very much.

      Benjamin Franklin says:

      “Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither”

  9. Lesson "Relearned" says:

    I recently received this same traffic ticket and I too was upset and realize I’m still a bit bothered by it because the image showed the line had eroded away in various areas of the “clearly” marked line. Plus, this “old” yet only recently enforced rule of the road is only intermittently monitored at various intersections. I’m not sure if CDOT is attempting a new study or the city is researching its laws to come up with more ways to take even more money out of our pockets but, that’s what civil servants such as myself have noticed. Over 15 years of driving and the only good thing to come out of this is that I still remember this law and am more aware of it again.

    1. bombshelterbob says:

      How many steps are you people in Denver away from old Joe Stalin’s “charge of the month” arrest policies? Maybe it’s time for you to take your city back like those guys back east just did, the citizens got together and simply threw out EVERYBODY and replaced ’em with real people! OWS is just a liberal brain-f**t, that citizen’s revolt was the beginning of the real revolution!

  10. gray-beard says:

    “There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws”

    Ayn Rand.

    1. David Muth says:

      Exactly right!

    2. I was just thinking of this quote. Cheers to you for posting it!

    3. Rearden_Metal says:

      OMG. I just read that quote last night. Scary.

  11. Sean M says:

    I received this very ticket and was personally outraged. I might as well have been held up at gunpoint by a police officer in an alley. This is theft of the public on a grand scale in the common guise of “your safety”. The tickets are set up intentionally to make it extremely inconvienient to fight with mulitple trips to the downtown courthouse. They also do not carry any points on your record so that they basically force you to pay out of nuisance. Anyone making a reasonable wage will not deduce that it is worth the time to go to court (several hours plus travel time plus parking fees) and that is the balance that the “lawmakers” obviously intended to strike.

    Furthurmore, to associate this with “street racers” as the above post attempts is not even remotely a logiical connection to the people getting these tickets. I would be curious to know if that pedestrian has ever stepped off of the curb without the walk symbol or still been in the crosswalk after the walk symbol ended. If so then you deserve a ticket for your great offense in the name of safety to the public under this thinking.

  12. gadso says:

    If you’re not served the ticket by a police/traffic officer in person, you don’t have to pay it. Throw the ticket in the garbage and say you never received it. It truly is as simple as that. Otherwise, you can go out and destroy these cameras, you have my full support.

    1. nygrump says:

      hat could be problematic – they can put out a warrant on you, you get stopped at a warrantless TSA citizenship check and ZAP you’re busted. These antiamerican jerks alwatys fly their little flags…

  13. Christine Chambers says:

    I knew that Denver was desperate for money, but really now. Do cops get tickets for doing the samething, or for speeding, or for running a red light for no apparent reason. They too must follow all traffic laws or face the same tickets that everyone else gets…

  14. Chunga says:

    Paintball the cameras.

    1. sean patriot says:

      I SAY WE JUST OCCUPY THEM AND RIP THEM ALL DOWN

  15. Herewulf says:

    “I didn’t go through the red light. I just didn’t stop at the white line,”
    Yeah, like “I didn’t punch you in the face, my fist just didn’t stop swinging until after it connected.”
    You’re behind the wheel of a vehicle, it is YOUR responsibility to pay attention and stop when and where the law requires. Break the minor traffic law, get a ticket. If you don’t want to pay the fine, then pay ATTENTION.

    1. p dirt says:

      You must work for Redflex. A few INCHES over the line? Draconian and procrrustean all at the same time. What’s next, face crimes?

  16. Sean says:

    There you have it, folks. If you stop over the white line, just blow through the red light. You’re getting a ticket anyway, so you may as well not have to sit stopped for that 2-3 minutes. If enough people do this, Denver will wise up. Occupy traffic signals!

  17. Karl Magnus says:

    So let’s install an NHRA “tree” at every intersection.
    I’m sure that drag racers will appreciate it.
    (sigh)
    Money-grubbing pols are ruining America.
    ~(Ä)~

    1. Phantom II says:

      Karl, you’d love driving in Germany. The traffic lights there do, indeed, go from red to yellow, then green. It’s a hoot. NHRA at every intersection.

  18. Lawrence Sanchez says:

    We down here in Albuquerque just voted out the red light cameras. They shortened the yellow lights, caused rear end accidents to skyrocket, and became a net drain on the system. Don’t take these things lying down, Denver! The cameras are a massive scam.

  19. whatsfairisfair says:

    Instead of nitpicking drivers, they should crack down on the pedestrians that think the “countdown clock” on the crossing signals tell them how much time they have to get across, ignoring the fact that the red hand was already telling them “do not start walking.” Peds that start walking after the red hand has flashed, thinking they still have time, are a hazard that drivers turning onto a street have to avoid – potentially causing accidents. It also jams up traffic on streets where drivers are trying to turn, as they have no time left to make turns. If Denver is so hard up for cash, start ticketing jaywalkers.

  20. Greg says:

    I blew through a red light about a month ago. Didn’t see it changing or that there was a cop watching me! She was pulling out of parking lot and got in right behind me. Then at the next light, another motorist got out of his car and complained to the officer about my driving. The cop got out and approached me. She said “don’t do it again.” And I haven’t, it was a mistake. For you do-gooder tattlers, mind your own business! No camera thankfully.

    1. Mikey says:

      Cool story bro.

  21. Joe says:

    burning down Denver and executing the politicians would be a good start

  22. redshirtslookweird says:

    How much does the Denver Police Photo Enforcement Division cost to run each year? Probably more than they were bringing in. So they shortened the yellows and started nitpicking. Way to go Denver, you’re paying for some slobs in a dark room to nitpick over your stopping abilities. That’s it.

  23. Occupussie says:

    Hey, don’t you know? You people gotta PAY for these greedy government servants…..with their very nice salaries, lavish pensions and cadillac health care. Not until GOVERNMENT UNIONS ARE SMASHED AND OUTLAWED will this greed stop

  24. Tim says:

    It is all about the city and the camera operating company making money. It has nothing to do with public safety. It is time to revolt and to vote all officials out of office.

  25. Treaded On says:

    This happened to me a couple years ago. A 1-second yellow, and a stop with the nose of the car just over the line. The ticket came in my daughter’s name since the car was registered to her. I sent out 6 letters to various city and state officials in protest. The only concrete result was the ticket being reissued in my name. A state legislator replied that he “shared my concern” but did anything happen? No.

  26. Danny Nix says:

    When can any government entity ever be trusted? They will always be deceitful in one fashion or another.

  27. Fred Flint says:

    I recieved a ticket for going through a red light on belleview. The yellow light was very short. It sounds lame but you only get a second to decide if you can safely stop or just keep going. I could have cleared the intersection if the yellow light lasted more then 2 seconds. Anyway I paid the $75 rather then fool with it. I have changed my route home just so I dont have to take a chance with it anymore. If I were a business in that vacinity I would pay attention to how many people avoid areas with stop light cameras. .

    1. MOS was 71331 says:

      “You only get a second to decide if you can safely stop or just keep going.” I agree. And no matter whether you slam on the brakes or accelerate to beat the light, you’re going to be fined.

      My practice now is to drive down the streets at five miles an hour UNDER the speed limit and to stop whenever I encounter a yellow light. I’m retired, and I can’t afford these fines.

      1. Don Bags says:

        Racking my brain as to why this is a bad thing.

        Conclusion….it’s a good thing. Thank God you adjusted your driving habits because of law enforcement and have now become a safer driver.

        Just wish the rest of the whiny yahoo’s here would realize that, instead of carping how they ought to not have to drive as safely as they should. Or carping about conspiracies. Or…so help me…quoting Ayn Rand. Read her in college. Used to give away copies of “The Fountainhead.” Then I grew out of her.

  28. Pablo Honey says:

    Here is how you fight these:

    When you go to court you have a right to question the accuser. So, call the camera up as a witness. If they put it up on the stand, ask it a question. It won’t answer. They may put a police officer in its place. If he speaks, immediately object on the grounds of heresay.

    1. MOS was 71331 says:

      “Call the camera as a witness.” That’s an interesting suggestion, but the judge, quite properly, won’t let you do that. Objects can be presented as evidence, but only people can be called as witnesses. If your scheme were allowed, a murderer could beat the rap by calling the murder weapon as a witness.

  29. sean patriot says:

    YAY LIBERALISM !11!!!!1!!

  30. Various Authors says:

    Govertnment is doing all it can to push the citizenry to say “enough is enough. Back off or we’ll back you off!” Can you imagine? We elect these power hungry morons to office and then they decide they can tell us what to do or not do. That’s not what you are there for!

  31. Kennth E. Lamb says:

    Why do you allow the people who legislate your local ordinances to stay in office? They are the idiots that make, and can un-make, this situation.

    Put the blame where it belongs – your local council members and mayor. Dump them in the next election.

    And if your judges are elected, dump them as well. The judges could just refuse to fine people for this, but they are just hacks of the system whose own pockets are filled by looting your wallet.

    Nothing quite like seeing your colleagues thrown out of office to get a politician’s attention – and to change their behavior.
    -30-

  32. Burtb says:

    …and because of that, some drivers stop waaay before the white line – then a sensor under the road does not sense the car – and they will NOT get a green light.
    Can’t win…..

  33. atrollsays says:

    Hey denser go grab a good mirror get the reflection of the sun and shine it at that camera for about 20 mins. Out goes the sensor. FEM

  34. gary gooddriver says:

    Red light means DO NOT ENTER the intersection, not do not go through it. The little white lines that everybody knows are there are the borders of the intersections. If you cross that line then boys and girls you have entered the intersection. It’s very simple to comprehend. Every American understands that when the football crosses then end zone line then it is a touchdown. Yet these knuckleheads pretend like they don’t understand this same concept when in reality they are just too lazy to drive correctly. Break the law you deserve your punishment.

    1. Cindy E. says:

      The cameras were implemented only to enforce red light violations, not other vehicle infractions. Irrelevant if they are breaking other laws. KEEP fighting these tickets Denver!

      1. Aloysious Farquart says:

        Yeah. Whatever you do, don’t bother to learn to drive, that would require way too much effort.

  35. matt says:

    Just imagine what the “even hand” of the State will be like once these things become omnipresent under the oversight of Dept of Homeland Security. Decorative Street Lights with covert camera, microphone and speakers hidden in them and a wireless network that allows access from a remote station, anywhere in the world with web access. This is real and being implimented in the US right now. Google “Intellistreets, Farmington Hills MI”

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/oakland_county/intelligent-lights-make-up-wireless-network-used-for-entertainment-and-safety#ixzz1cOAJ4Nlt

  36. C.R. says:

    All this is is a form of Legal Robbery by the city.

  37. Reardon says:

    “‘Did you really think we want those laws observed?’ said Dr. Ferris. We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it…

    “There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.

    “Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with. (‘Atlas Shrugged’ 1957)

  38. vloxy says:

    I blame NFL instant replay for suggesting a culture of instant review of situations. What we need is red light camera review on corrupt government officials. Institute instant replay for government! STOP THIS MADNESS!

  39. GuyFawkes says:

    I recommend everyone stopping a minimum of 50 ft from the white line at every stop. Let all the traffic problems that will cause aggrevate the over reaching lunatics that think this is a good idea.

  40. Joe says:

    You in Denver should find the names of those who voted for this law or regulation, and publicize the date of their next standing for election, or the name of the elected official who appointed them and his next election date. Also the names and terms of judges, both those who enforce this and who dismiss it.

  41. jopiper says:

    This article is just another reason to stay in the suburbs, not Denver. Violent gangs, obnoxious homeless, no parking. Why bother?

  42. ATP4233 says:

    Why don’t you stop before the line? What about the pedestrian?

    1. rg says:

      is there a pedestrian in that photo?

  43. Dan Mejor says:

    Basically, this is just another tax. There is a simple solution to this: conduct all your business out of Denver’s city limits. Let the Chamber of Commerce get wind of it and you’ll be amazed how quickly the problem gets solved.

  44. Jason says:

    This is the law everywhere people…get over yourselves.

  45. Bill says:

    One of the (few) nice things about traffic enforcement here in Maryland is that the State Legislature years ago mandated a consistent, uniform seven-second yellow light before turning red. This greatly helps in making the “can I make it through on the yellow before it turns red” vs. “do I need to stop quickly and risk getting rear-ended?” decisions.

  46. Steven Whitcomb says:

    “Good sees no evil where suspicion sleeps”

    Milton.

  47. Evan says:

    The city that I live in needs to adopt this law. Many times you are on the curb waiting to cross the street using the crosswalk, and thoughtless drivers look you in the face and roll their vehicles half way onto it forcing you to go around their vehicles. Another thing that is annoying is doing it on narrow roads and forcing intersecting traffic onto the shoiulder of the road as they turn on the street opposite the offending vehicle. Thumbs up for Denver cops!! There is nothing like a fine to improve thoughtless, selfish behavior.

    1. BeauW says:

      I understand what you are saying, Evan, but have you never had to stand on your brakes to stop for a signal with a short yellow?

    2. rg says:

      are these really examples of thoughtless, selfish behavior? I’d say yes, on the city’s part, not the drivers’.

  48. Paul Z says:

    For those of you out there on the Denver roads who haven’t yet noticed the Police Department has changed its “To Serve and Protect” motto to “To Serve Summons and Collect”. Further proof here…

  49. BeauW says:

    The politicians claim they do these kind of things as safety / law enforcement measures. If they truly wanted this to be a safety measure, they would LENGTHEN the yellow lights!

  50. caveat emptor says:

    The red light violation cameras are nothing but a cash register for the city budgets. There have been many studies that prove thay are ineffective in significantly reducing traffic fatalities or crashes.

    ITS PURE MONEY. The proof is how Denver is charging for a “one inch” infraction. Its B S! INTENT, PEOPLE, INTENT, the driver who stops one inch over the stop line/bar intended to obey the law, and in reality did obey the law, yet he was fined.

  51. rg says:

    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

  52. steveh3 says:

    “a. Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line”

    Looks to me like they have a legit gripe. The law doesn’t say, “shall stop before the clearly marked stop line” I would ask the police and law makers to define “at” ala Bill Clinton (It all depends on what the meaning of “at” is)

  53. smedd's says:

    Same thing in El Cajon, CA. If you stop and over the line, it’s 1/2 of the normal fine of 375 dollars.. Folks, the Cities, Counties, State and Feds are common thieves and legal extortionists. It’s time for them to get a well deserved “haircut”.

  54. jim says:

    Too bad that 90% of the revenue generated by these cameras goes to a private company in Australia that installs and maintains them. The local PD gets just a little bit of the money.

    I suggest disabling the cameras!

  55. jeff b says:

    No matter what they tell the public, it’s all about revenue generation.

  56. Red Light Scameras says:

    A lot of cities are taking these down. They have been proven to be failures.

    http://blog.motorists.org/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/

    When there are red light cameras people who should have gone through the intersection instead SLAM on their brakes to prevent a ticket to themselves but do not account for the person behind them. This increases high speed rear end collisions and the injuries that go along with them.

    Red light cameras are nothing but a scam.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-11-01/news/chi-naperville-council-votes-to-end-red-light-camera-contract-early-20111101_1_camera-program-red-light-naperville-council-members

    Naperville Illinois is taking down red light cameras. Hopefully this trend continues.

  57. Dave says:

    Sorry..Keep electing the jerks and you keep getting the government you want! BooHoo

  58. Leloo says:

    I think you should get a ticket!! The law is the law, if you can’t obey it, pay for it. Your self-sense of urgency is no one else’s problem but your own, don’t make it mine.

    1. Cindy E. says:

      The cameras were implemented only to enforce red light violations, not other vehicle infractions. Irrelevant if they are breaking other laws.

  59. joe says:

    Here in Georgia the pressure sensors that cause the light to change are literally in the white line and if you don’t drive over them the light will never change.

  60. tralelling man says:

    Really makes you want to visit Denver, doesn’t it ????

    1. sonid says:

      No, not really! Every time my husband or I go down to Denver, it seems like we get a ticket. Now I avoid Denver for shopping, for sure. We’ve received photo tickets, and I got stopped when turning from N. Broadway to get onto I-25. They pulled almost everyone over for a quick $165.00 ticket for not stopping completely at a stop sign. I overheard the officer saying in radio…”I only have two more”. Completely revenue creating department. Makes me sick what’s happening to our city.

  61. XVRacerik says:

    they aren’t stealing anything-it’s called a stop bar for a reason. when you signed the paperwork to get your license you agreed that you understood this. stop crying, pay the fine and don’t do it anymore.

  62. Dan Tana says:

    Until we the citizens rise up against government with our votes this will be our future. Government is to work for us; not us for government.

  63. Ben says:

    Gotta keep feeding the fat judges, the courts, and the police pensions some way.

  64. denvervet says:

    Did anyone else notice that many of the longer comments have the same writing style but “supposed” different screen names attached to them? The same person has written several comments, this happens quite often lately. I guess its easy to change your screen name?

    Anyhow, maybe the city is doing this to help pay for the cameras, no one thought of that one. Just try to drive and stop correctly and this shouldn’t be a problem for you. There are a lot of things more important than this in life, that’s for darn sure.

  65. Ben says:

    I guess going through the red light to avoid the ticket seems more plausible to me.

  66. rob says:

    You don’t have to pay photo tickets. Just send them a letter saying it wasn’t you in the car. You are not compelled to tell them who it might have been – that’s there problem to solve.

  67. riteturn says:

    They won’t give you an inch. Don’t allow them any slack either.

  68. Cindy E. says:

    I am really surprised that no one is fighting this legally on the basis this is out of the jurisdiction of the camera. Red light camera are only monitoring traffic light violations, not violations of other vehicle code. If Denver does not stop it here, you will soon see these yahoos ticketing motorists for other ridiculous vehicular violations that aren’t in the name of safety, but in the name of revenue generation. And these cameras were not implemented for enforcing any other vehicle code other than red light violations. Please continue to fight this fight-total injustice.

  69. Sam E Moore Jr says:

    This is exactly what happens when radical Socialist Govern .
    Obama has added 9 Thousands pages {front and Back ) to our Regulations .
    That is not counting the Energy Dept. EPA ,TSA , FDA , FTC , FCC not to mention Home land SEC and the Dodd Franks bill 21,000 pages . .
    There are also 1,741 new Welfare and entitlement programs .

  70. Surfer4life says:

    It’s Denver law that if they don’t serve the ticket to you in person, you don’t have to pay it. Here’s the link from Fox Denver – http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-photo-radar-tickets-may-not-be-worth-the-paper-theyre-written-on-20110428,0,6858710.story

  71. Sam E Moore Jr says:

    I left out The State of Calif. Congress last year created 12.197 new laws .
    They were very upset because there were another 1,368 Law Pending .

    1. forthechildren says:

      Dems run the state of californial…more Dems = more laws. But we like more laws I thought.

  72. forthechildren says:

    Continue electing Dems and this is what happens. Will any Dem politician stand up against this? I dont think so…just sayin…

  73. Public says:

    I think the entire country should stop paying these “citations” (which they are not). These are nothing more than “bills” given to drivers by companies who operate these cameras in cooperation with local governments. In other words, the cities have made a money making deal with the camera operators under the guise of “safety.” It’s all a lie. It does nothing to decrease accidents or violations, but it puts a whole lot of money in the pockets of the operators, with a hefty stipend being paid to the city. If we all stopped paying them they would be forced to stop preying upon us for income.

  74. L-Dave says:

    How do they know the identity of the driver? If a friend or family member were driving my car, and I get the ticket, how is this handled? If it is the case that Colorado is prosecuting a person who was not even driving, that seems blatantly unconstitutional.

  75. a says:

    the red lite white line law is designed to do one thing – generate clients for lawyers and judges. the whole system is designed to generate business for lawyers. its the lawyers stupid. police bounty hunt for – lawyer clientele, and the gov’t judicial industrial complex. every new client keeps thousands of jail and courts system staff gainfuly employed and union membership from failing. face it – the lawyers the judges the gov’t are intentionally aiming right at your wallet. after expenses, a $75 fine amounts to about $10 gain for the city. the real money made is the lawyers and the court employees. its the lawyers stupid. the lawyers fight for new laws because it creates new business opportunities for them. its the lawyers stupid. occupy lawyers.

  76. TexasForever says:

    Hey, I thought Coloradians loved their overreaching government?
    Here in Houston the people FORCED the city of Houston to disconnect their red light cameras.
    Obama is the ENEMY WITHIN!

    1. Glenn S. says:

      Tex i lived in Houston as a kid and left the beginning of 1981..Since then i have heard how Houston has eroded and gone to the devil ala Obama’s type of people=LIBERALS… You have some of the worst criminals in office in Houston from throughout the Country and possibly throughout the world!!!! I wish it were not that way because Houston was a great place to grow up as a kid in the 1970’s and i always growing up regretted having to move from there.As an adult i look back and think it was one of the best things a Parent could do for a child to get them outof the cesspool of Liberalism that Houston has become!!

  77. Fred says:

    This is going to be starting in most cities across the country at some point. And then these red light cameras are going to start being torn down in many cities across the country. Bank on it.

  78. john0476 says:

    The answer is to use a non-photo lens or spray on your plate so the camera can’t record your number. They can be found lots of places on the net, including ebay.

  79. john galt says:

    Government has no authority over innocent men, but uses force to compel the guilty. When the law is constructed in such a way as to ensure every citizen is guilty of this or that at some time or another, we’ll have awakened too late to this creeping authoritarianism.

  80. BigBoa says:

    Here’s a suggestion. Especially since they do like to make the absurdly short yellow lights. As Mr. Lamb previously posted, the main thing is to oust the pols and judges. But here’s a question. Are we “judged” on “stopping ability” or are we to be “judged” on willful breaking of the law? What happens if, in attempting to stop at a short yellow, with a vehicle on your a$$, you have no choice but to cross the line to avoid being rear-ended? The camera doesn’t show that. It also doesn’t show if, in your effort to stop and perhaps barely crossing the line, which can happen to ANYONE, you actually BACK UP…..

    This is simply another way to keep their hands in our pockets and it is time for them to remove them.

  81. mike C. says:

    Hey Colorado…….do what others need to do and throw those people out of office. Use your voting power to initiate changes. Complaining solves nothing!

  82. Gmarks says:

    I lived in Colorado for most of my life… and thought Nazi police were NORMAL.

    Little did I know [until I moved to New Mexico] that cops didn’t have to be retired Military goonies…

    This is so typical of Denver… anything for a buck… a neo nazi mentality…

    just look what the local cops did to OWS…. the police in Colorado are all former Air Force, or Army grunts… who couldn’t live there unless they became goonies…

    All Colorado roads are filled with traps and schemes for revenue… be especially careful in Chaffee County…. scamming tourists with their goon squads is how they fund the entire county

  83. Scott from MN says:

    Word to tourists – avoid Denver go to Colorado Springs.

  84. Seth says:

    I got a ticket for this exact thing. Only thing is, I saw on Fox 31 that you don’t have to pay the ticket unless it’s personally served by an officer. I didn’t pay, three months since has passed no one served it and I’m in the clear.

    1. Mile Hi Mmj Patient says:

      EXACTLY!

      People,

      You NOT NOT HAVE TO PAY unless you are served by a PERSON!

      CRS 42-4-110.5(a)(II) requires the complaint to served (personally handed to you) NO LATER THAN 90 DAYS.

      Fox did a report on this not too long ago.
      http://www.coloradomedicalmarijuanapatient.com/forum/showthread.php/1430-FYI-photo-radar

  85. marg1 says:

    TOO MANY LAWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Government is out of control.

  86. gary gooddriver says:

    I love it when anarchists pretend to be constitutionists. But here’s what’s funny. Local governments spend lots of taxpayer money designing intersections and painting lines. Then knuckleheads come along and choose to flaunt the law by stopping over the line that they know is there and what it means. When they are busted for intentionally breaking the law they then become outraged at inanimate objects and the city council who was elected to protect public safety. Then some of them propose protesting against the inanimate objects and public safety officials by stopping 50 ft before every intersection. When all you have to do to avoid ALL of this is to simply stop at a white line without going over it. That’s all. If everyone simply followed the rules then there would be no red light cameras because they would never be activated so would not generate revenue and not pay for themselves. But alas a large segment of society is either too dumb or too lazy for democracy.

  87. ROWDY BOOTS says:

    f***ing theives!

    You put these people in office on purpose, that is the tragedy!

    THERE WILL BE BLOOD–YOU ONLY PUSH AMERICANS SO FAR AND THEN YOU WILL HAVE A CIVIL WAR.

    LOOK AT OCCUPY NONSENSE

  88. PINCPN says:

    I’m for these cameras if 1) the timing of the yellow light is studied and determined to be appropriate and safe, and not linked to how much the vendor and city can make 2) it frees up Police resources to solve and prevent crime 3) the cost of the cameras is reasonable, (i.e. it shouldn’t be a million dollars a camera) 4) make sure the intersections have stripes and signs indicating where to stop. I don’t think we need our Police spending their time writing traffic tickets. Lastly, lets first send tickets to those who run the red light, not stop on the line…

    1. BOOM says:

      Police resources?!?! How many cops have you seen sitting at light waiting for someone to go over the white line? Please…they aren’t crime fighting, let’s be serious. There are towns that have 3 different police divisions…why?! Free up some of the resources and get rid of these extra police- not necessary at all. Peoples driving skills these days are the ones lacking…make the drivers ed like Europe and we will be ok….well if people go over that white line, you might as well blaze through the intersection since you already got a ticket.

    2. Don Bags says:

      PINCPN…

      Nice reasoned points. Though I don’t see you think a municipality wouldn’t send tickets to any and all violators. Maybe if that day there were a shortage of envelopes? Dunno.

      It’s not a like a cop, who could really only pull over one person at a time and would thus have to choose between two violators.

  89. Steve says:

    Profit Profit Profit wait til they start taxing us just for breathing! Taxed Enough Already?

    1. pammylou says:

      Breathing is a big problem.Look at the C02 problem.
      I think a Co2 camera which measures your C02 output would be a good idea.

  90. bouqeronman says:

    Ah, what a Progressive paradise we live in! This is just one small example of the metastasizing of government. The politican-public sector union goal is to criminalize normal daily life. In other words create a society where there are so many rules and regulations about what a person can and cannot do that it is impossible not to unknowingly commit a “crime” while going about one’s daily affairs. The result is fear and suspicion of government and the means to manipulate the population. Every extra dollar raked in from schemes like this one will end up adding to the capacity of government to expand the capacity to vacuum your wallet. As further evidence, I just saw a chart that total property tax obligations in the U.S. have now exceeded the total mortgage interest payments of homeowners! Welcome to the Societal Decline.

  91. a says:

    wake up folks. its not the police. its the lawyer industrial complex. new laws do one thing – create more business for lawyers. get it? its the lawyers stupid.

    1. pammylou says:

      You need to wake up.The law is there for a reason.You sound like one of those anarchists.

  92. a says:

    its not the police, its the lawyers. the lawyers lobby for new laws, finance the politicians to vote on them, draft the language of the new laws, and get the sheriff and other politicians to generate the neverending new batches of lawyer clientele. the courts get more business, the union employees get more work, the gov’t grows, and you the citizen, get to pay for it all one way or another. its the lawyers stupid. occupy lawyers.

  93. pammylou says:

    Rules are rules ! I think it’s great.It will save the children.The $75 fine is too small.
    I think $500 for the first offense would be more appropriate,and jail time for the second offense.It’s too lenient as it is and only encourages people to break the law with a slap on the wrist for such an offense.Stopping over the line is a very serious offense.The line is there for a reason and people must learn to obey.
    If the fines cannot be increased then perhaps a little corporal punishment (like 10 zaps from a taser,along with a cash fine)would teach the criminals a lesson.
    I cannot believe the comments from the criminal coddlers on this forum that shows a severe disrespect for the law,and the need for even stricter regulation.

    1. JWS says:

      Thanks for your input, Dwight Schrute.

    2. DJH says:

      I’m going to assume your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek when you made this post. There is no way ignorance of that magnitude could even log on to a PC much less post to the interwebs.

  94. Lou Ann Watson says:

    drivers only have themselves to blame…the impatient creeping at red lights, inattention to the signals themselves and just plain sloppiness in driving. you don’t know how many people i see every day stopping in crosswalks…if you drive responsibly, chances are this will not effect you…

  95. Joe Bergstrom says:

    I’m actually OK with this. People need to understand: you stop your car behind the cross walk. And for a good reason, I can’t count the number of times I’ve been nearly run over, or have to walk around a vehicle because some moron stopped in the crosswalk. I’m glad to see laws enforced!

    1. Robert says:

      Can’t use a law to enforce another scenario. The red light cameras are to prevent cars from running red lights, not stopping over the line.

    2. pammylou says:

      Thank you…people truly need to understand.
      Your testimony is horrifying!
      Thank God you survived!
      Not stopping behind the line the greatest threat facing our overpopulated cities today!
      Kudo’s to Denver! With the advent of public private partnerships we can now stop all crime in our life so others don’t have to go through the nightmares you endured!
      Reading your story had me in tears.
      Thank you for a little sanity on this discussion.
      I can’t believe how many crazy people are making these bizarre statements
      approving of crimes,trying to influence others to turn a blind eye to criminal activity.

      1. goodlittlesheep says:

        Stopping over the line does not make you a criminal you fool.

  96. SuperDave says:

    If you read section C its states “shall stop at a clearly marked stop line” The word ” at ” is a broad term that doesnt define a clear location of your car such as the word ” before ” If you live in Denver and get a ticket you should request a jury trial and have the person issuing the ticket define the word ” at ” on the stand then hand them a dictionary because ” at ” is defined as ” near, by , toward ” Clearly the people of Denver have a judge who can not comprehend the law. If you paid this fine , you should by public record get the names of all the citizens who paid this fine and sue the city as a class action suit for fraud.

    1. pammylou says:

      Excuses excuses…..The camera doesn’t lie.You cannot sue the authorities.Don’t give people crazy ideas.
      They couldn’t ticket you if it wasn’t the law.
      Suing the authorities is paper terrorism.
      Shame on you. We live in a Democracy and the people have spoken.
      Get over it,and follow the rules and you won’t have anything to complain about

  97. JWS says:

    I can’t believe the number of people commenting here that seem to actually believe that the city politicians are more interested in public safety than they are in the revenue the fines generate.

  98. BigLou15 says:

    Just looked up the Denver City Council and there are 13 members but there are no designations as to which party they belong. If I were to bet, there would be a big democratic majority.

    You get what you vote for – and a democrat will seek free money any way they can.

  99. Mitch says:

    I believe by Law they can set the Yellow-Lights from 3 to 6 seconds.

    It sounds like Denver has the Lights at 3 seconds.

    It’s not fair and these should be outlawed

  100. Thomas Newman says:

    I dont get it. No where in the law does it state that no part of the car can be over the line. If your front tires are on the line you are stopped at the line as described in the law.

  101. Tut-o-nun-y says:

    Don’t acknowledge it and there is nothing they can do. Throw it away. I have done that on some from Arizona and they did nothing. Mainly, the company that issues these things are not law enforcement. they are a private company and have no say what so ever in situations like this.

  102. Mitch says:

    I believe by Law they can set the Yellow-Lights from 3 to 6 seconds.

    It sounds like Denver has the Lights at 3 seconds.

    The Traffic Engineers are supposed to adjust the Yellow-Light
    time from 3 to 6 seconds depending on the Speed Limit on the
    Street leading-up to the intersection. If the speed limit is 35-45 MPH
    the Yellow-Light should be closer to the 6 seconds.

    If the Speed is 25 MPH it can be set closer to the 3 seconds for the Yellow
    Light time.

    We see many accidents in S Florida from people slamming-on the brakes
    causing unnecessary rear-end collisions.

    There have been many accidents because of the traffic lights.

  103. Mile Hi Mmj Patient says:

    People,

    You NOT NOT HAVE TO PAY unless you are served by a PERSON!

    CRS 42-4-110.5(a)(II) requires the complaint to served (personally handed to you) NO LATER THAN 90 DAYS.

    Fox did a report on this not too long ago.
    http://www.coloradomedicalmarijuanapatient.com/forum/showthread.php/1430-FYI-photo-radar

  104. Jeff Meese says:

    I too was “caught” stopping over the line. As the pictures clearly showed, there was no other traffic or pedestrians within sight. Any reasonable person would see that there really was no infraction or dangerous traffic behavior. I called to try and get it reduced and was told that I had broken the law and could have my day in court.

    I paid fine because my time is worth more than wasting hours on fighting it. $75 bucks for that, totally about generating revenue.

    As a daring traffic desperado, due to relocating I didn’t pay a $1.00 toll on I-470 as The State didn’t have my correct address. When they did get my address updated I received a fine of $98.00. I was told I had failed to show up for my court date!

    $98.00 dollars for $1.00 toll plus the cost of a trial? Yes, it’s all about the benjamins.

  105. Matt San Diego says:

    The “Occupy” protest groups like to claim how greedy and avarice “the rich 1 percent” is yet seem to completely ignore our government’s mismanagement — both state and federal, Obama has balls to want to charge any income surcharges as he gladly gives money to pet projects (Solyndra anyone?, foreign-based electric car companies that create $50,000+ products only the 1 percenters can afford).

    Denver is prime example of rather than properly forward the money they already grab from us, they continue to sponsor great waste and then demand tax increases or find sneaky (but legal) ways of “fundraising”. Who does Denver end up hurting up the most with actions like this? The 99 percenters.

    Why isn’t the current crop of protesters instead “Occupy Governmenters” where the true problem resiodes? Because it’s primarily a Marxist movement given a wink and nod by Obama and his ilk where the government is God. These folks are Obama’s “foot soldiers” he called for while addressing the NAACP many weeks ago.

  106. kv says:

    The law is what it is. Consider the bicycle person who coasts through the red light !! Share the road?

  107. SerfCityHereWeCome says:

    Simply do what I used to do when I was a political prisoner in NY before fleeing to Texas– every time I got a seatbelt ticket (even when I later got it thrown out in court 95% of the time) I would hold off on all my shopping for any mid- to big-ticket items until I was traveling out of state in order to cost the state at least 3x as much as the ticket in sales tax. If you live anywhere NEAR one if its borders, just do all of your holiday shopping in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Nebraska and New Mexico until this insanity stops.

  108. Civil servant says:

    Power corrupts. Abosolute power corrupts absolutely. Vote the greedy administration out of office, or stnad up for your rights. They are being stripped away at an alarming rate.

  109. Matt San Diego says:

    The “Occupy” protest groups like to claim how greedy and avarice “the rich 1 percent” is yet seem to completely ignore our government’s mismanagement — both state and federal, Obama has balls to want to charge any income surcharges as he gladly gives money to pet projects (Solyndra anyone?, foreign-based electric car companies that create $50,000+ products only the 1 percenters can afford).

    Denver is prime example of rather than properly forward the money they already grab from us, they continue to sponsor great waste and then demand tax increases or find sneaky (but legal) ways of “fundraising”. Who does Denver end up hurting up the most with actions like this? The 99 percenters.

    Why isn’t the current crop of protesters instead “Occupy Governmenters” where the true problem resides? Because it’s primarily a Marxist movement given a wink and nod by Obama and his ilk where the government is God. These folks are Obama’s “foot soldiers” he called for while addressing the NAACP many weeks ago.

  110. Johi says:

    Seems easy enough to stay behind the white line. That is what the white line is there for, after all.

  111. Tim says:

    This is what Denver and most of Colorado has turned into after the Democrats took over. Get over it or get active.

  112. JT says:

    Cities all over the country are gouging citizens like this just so they can continue to pay their government workers outrageous salaries and pensions.

  113. Sam says:

    Rip the cameras down.

  114. Joannie says:

    Another place starved for cash.What Denver probably needs is a REALLY good dose of progressive Democratic government.At least another dozen years.And you enjoy now

  115. Not surprised in the least. Anything to further loot the nation. I’m sure if you don’t pay this BS citation you will get a warrant or they will suspend your license.

  116. R says:

    The rule says “at” the line, not “before”. Webster’s online dictionary defines “at” as “occurrence in, on, or near”. Accordingly, it seems to me that unless the city can show that the car was actually intruding into the crosswalk, it really should not issue a ticket.

    1. gary gooddriver says:

      R, let me help you out with this in terms that you might understand. Let’s say Obama was speaking at an anti-capitalism rally at the local Sierra Club and they were giving away iPads and condoms. But in order to get them you had to be “at the event at Noon”. Despite the fact that you would have to get out of bed much earlier than usual, would you expect to qualify for the handout if instead you showed up at the Occupy The YWCA event at 12:30? Ahhhhhhhhhh…..

      1. Don Bags says:

        Well…it depends. You truly are SOL if you’re white and are late for the handout. Or Asian. The other minorities have a tiered system of what constitutes being late. The lucky ones don’t even need to go…some inner ctiy stores would let them use their EBT cards for an iPad. As for condoms: their kids get ’em by the handful at school.

        Bad example GG. Bad, bad example.

  117. Kimberly says:

    This is ridiculous. Just another way to f*** us in the a**. Along with the illegally parked vans, $50 fees for not moving your car for street sweeping, it’s sickening.

  118. kickk says:

    Brings a whole new meaning to the word ‘pigs’.

  119. suz says:

    Gov’t gone MAD! Folk need to rise up and vote these greedy political folks out.
    Most absurb, stupid money drive ever hears of.
    Gov’t folks need to RETIRE! The serve no one but their own greed.
    Denver needs not to ever be visited…..pass the word –
    NO Tourist for this sick State. Leftist need to move to old Europe, where gov’t rules everything, except the elites. Poor sick Denver.

  120. Carl says:

    Did anyone else notice in that first photo, the car NEXT to the car circled is WAY over the line?
    Also, what is the legal procedure for waiting to turn right? Everyone is always clearly over the line in that case. So are we never allowed to turn right on red? I’m confused.

  121. aaaa says:

    the entire lawyer industrial complex (lawyers, judges, courts, …) hope that their new laws make everyone ask for jury trials. law disputes are how they all make tons of money. lawyers are not on your side. if they were, they would be spending their own money suiting on behalf of themselves and fighting the system. yet, you never see them fighting for their own rights – just others for big fees.

  122. kettlecorn says:

    All you Denver citizens need to stop your whining. You go to the polls every election and vote for your left-wing nanny state democrats and this is what you get. These clowns running Denver city government are much smarter than the peasants they rule over. If they say you ran a red-light who are you to challenge the big brained democrats? Pay your fine and shut-up, there are people waiting in long lines for their check they did’nt earn, where do you think that money is going to come from.

  123. LTG says:

    Progressives/Liberals have got to be stopped!! They are taking over the world. Why do these elitist hacks get any traction? The media gives it to them. Instead of a healthy investigative, non partisan media we have a partisan, overreaching, vindictive, leftist agenda driven sub culture that just happens to own the cameras and the broadcast outlets. NOT what the framers of the US Constitution EVER had in mind!! Out maneuver the activist, progressive press and we can begin to take back ground from these kooks!

  124. Andy Meek says:

    So, in a right-on-red state, will you get a ticket if you cross over the line to see if it is clear for you to turn, even if you properly stopped before you made your move?

    How about at 1:00 in the morning? Seems a bit draconian at that hour when no one is around.

  125. DavosSherman says:

    Any wonder why #Occupy Wall Street is happening. These effing morons overspent and now they are gouging people for a&&inine things.

  126. Al says:

    They’re not being truthful. In Maryland, we get a series of three photos clearley showing the car entering the intersection on a red and proceeding through it, Someone in your DMV is pulling your leg about safety…

  127. Bob Oscar says:

    Elections have consequences…

    If you elect crooks…you get crooks….

  128. Publius says:

    It’s simple, avoid Denver. Eventually the business community will complain when the number of customers fall off..

  129. Dave says:

    All red light cameras (and to some extent speeding tickets) are all about revenue. Here in Georgia, there have been many municipalities that had to discontinue their red light cameras because, *gasp*, people stopped running the redlights, particularly at the intersections known to have cameras, which led to drastically reduced revenues… so much so they weren’t even bringing in enough money to run the cameras. A lot of people were surprised. Where they just expecting people to continue to run the lights?

  130. Herb Hall says:

    The attack on the ticket would be that the law says a person must “stop AT a clearly marked stop line.” The law does not say “before” the stop line. The argument would be that if one stopped on top of the line, they had in fact stopped “at” the line (as long as they did not protrude into the cross walk).

    Such enforcement just shows these cameras are solely for money, not for safety despite what anyone says.

  131. Renny says:

    Welcome to the Californacation of the once great state of Colorado.

    It breaks my heart to see what is happening. Happens to every state that is taken over and controled by progressives.

  132. Jake Flagg says:

    Cameras Reveal Criminal Government

    Here in Arizona you may know that the threshold that may get you a threatening letter from the state or a local municipality is supposedly eleven miles per over the speed limit, as determinded by “speed” or “red light” cameras. Empirical evidence indicates most police don’t bother with that low of a threshold unless you’re in a residential area or school zone. Chances of these cameras installed here are nearly nil. That will change as cameras become a dime a dozen, and if they prove a lucrative money source. OK, the state is supposedly getting rid of speed cameras, I’m unsure about red light cameras, but that still leaves local municipalities with hooks out.

    Unless AZ law has changed, you must be served to get a legitimate traffic ticket; that’s what an officer does when he gives you one. You don’t need to sign it or whatever, you’re still served, and it’s best you deal with it. Let’s face this too: if we get one, we probably deserve one. So, that letter? It’s just a threat? If you sent something like that to anyone, it would likely be interpreted as fraud and extortion. Ah, I telegraph too much.

    Again, here in AZ you may reasonably and prudently go faster than the posted speed limit, but that’s a judgement call. For instance, I once got a ticket in rural AZ for twenty mph over the posted. At traffic school, which didn’t cost $300, the officer in charge stated that since it was a bright sun shiny day, with only the ticketing officer’s car on the straight as an arrow road, I should have contested the charge, and it most likely would have been dismissed. Police can make that judgement. Cameras cannot.

    Furthermore, these camera devices use programmable software to be set. All software is notoriously prone to error, viruses, manipulation, and crashing. Have you experienced the Blue Screen of Death in Windows? How about a Kernel Panic with various Unix OSes, such as the Mac uses? These devices are wirelessly controlled and settings and protocols can be changed on a drive by. Manipulation is not only possible, but also likely. For instance, I once towed a Geo Tracker behind my RV. Since I rarely drove the Geo I was surprised to start it one day and have a red light appear with a “service engine soon” warning. I took it to a local Chevy dealer in WY. The mechanic who serviced the vehicle took me aside and said, “Don’t tell anyone I said this. There’s nothing wrong with your Geo. It’s just programmed to give warnings at certain mileage settings. I’ve reset it, and you won’t get that kind of warning for some time.”

    Lastly, according to U.S. law. U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 13, § 241 states in part: “If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same….

    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.”

    I say the letters sent are an attempt “injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate” people into parting with their hard earned cash.

    Folks, what about the next cameras up around the bend? Health cameras.

  133. Chris Doehring says:

    Start voting officials out of office and see if that doesn’t get things changed.

  134. Andreas Garza says:

    If it bothers the voters of Denver enough, they can demand from the Mayor/ City Manager to tell the Police Chief to stop this BS. Then the voters should vote out of office whoever did not listen to the voters’ demands.

  135. chuck in st paul says:

    I just love all the whining and sniveling from the incompetent/sloppy drivers. Infantile ‘me-ism’ displayed for all to see. ha ha ha ha ha Good for Denver. I wish our cities did the same.

    Why don’t you just try something simple – obey the law. Is that just too adult an idea for you?

  136. Norman204 says:

    The book 1984 is becoming a reality. If we allow this to continue the government will monitor every second of our activity and control us like a bunch of herded sheep. Behavior violations will be punished quickly and severely so we sheep stay herded and always stopping at the many different “clearly marked” white lines. Now is the time to enact laws limiting the use of monitoring technology.

  137. BillyBob117 says:

    From reading the postings, it centainly appears that Denver is full of law breakers, that cry and whine when caught.

  138. Rod says:

    Everybody in government knows that people will rant and rave at the nonsense that they pull on a daily basis, but at the end of the day, will do nothing more. the direction of people’s anger these days is all over the place and that is intentional. they hope that with so much coming in from so many directions, nobody can focus on one thing. these cameras are the beginning of a complete police state. watching everywhere you go and storing it in a database. eventually, these systems will be compromised and everybody’s daily actions will be broadcast-ed all over the internet. what this takes is old fashioned, boots on the ground, street justice, not the sit at your computer typing away on a generic blog site that 100 people will read. if towns find themselves constantly replacing these cameras all over town, THAT will send a message that the people don’t wish to be governed this way.

  139. Freedom says:

    Who gives a damn what the law says, THIS IS CORRUPTION AND FLAT OUT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

  140. Ernie Zippreplat says:

    The Product PHOTO BLOCKER SPRAY works great on detering these cameras when their flash goes off.
    http://www.magicphotoblocker.com/faqs.htm

  141. Chippy55 says:

    This is what the peeps wanted or else why did they elect who they elected? Electing Liberals has Consequences, remember that. If you don’t want to get a fine, stop before the white line, and then next week VOTE THOSE SANCTIMONIOUS IDIOTS OUT OF OFFICE!
    REMEMBER: Voting for Liberals has Consequences!

  142. Patriot says:

    Isn’t it amazing that Big Brother is making whitey toe the line (literally) or else, but 20,000,000 criminals can live in our country illegally with no legal repercussions! What an outrage! Not only that, illegal aliens can speed, cause accidents, kill people, with no insurance and no license, and nothing happens. Police can’t touch them, because, “That’s Obama’s job.”

    I can not wait until 2012 when we clean house.

  143. Michele Lloyd says:

    The Federal Govt should consider asking Denver for a bailout. With all the bicycilists and pedestrians walking against red, the city should be flush with cash.
    Good going, Denver. You are catching up with the idiots in SF; or are you just oxygen starved?

  144. Pat says:

    This is a prime example of government run amok.

  145. FASU says:

    It would look like this law is up for interpritation. The law says “shall stop at a clearly marked stop line ” but it does not say “before a clearly marked stop line”.

    Using the same logic, if you had to pay your ticket AT the court house then you would be looking for someone in the parking lot to take the payment for your fine. As such, the law is using “at” to imply “before”.

  146. Pat says:

    Oh, I love that idea! The prosecution would never want me on their jury. I don’t care what the law says, I’m going to use common sense. And common sense says “not guilty.” If the driver stopped for the red light, that’s good enough for me.

  147. RJ OGuillory says:

    Frankly,…

    I would fight the process on Constitutional grounds. If the law states that all drivers must obey the “line law”, then there must be equal enforcement. If the State (City Gov) wishes to enforce the law they must do so in an equitable fashion, meaning that all drivers must be subjected to the same level of treatment, investigation, standards, etc. If there is a situation where the “line law” is being violated all over the city, without any effort to “enforce” the law in those jurisdictions,….. but we have the law enforced where the “moneyed folks” are a better bet,..the law is applied in an unequal fashion, and therefore unconstitutional…

    If there are intersections throughout Denver (hundreds of thousands I presume) that are not camera-fixed, then the enforcement of the law is unequal and not applied evenly to all drivers.

    The day they put cops or cameras on every corner, and attempt to enforce the law equitably, then it may be constitutional,..but until that investment in “law enforcement resources” is made, it seems like some drivers are at a disadvantage over others?

    Regards,

    RJ O’Guillory
    Author-
    Webster Groves-The Life of an Insane Family

  148. hempstead says:

    And folks wonder why there is no respect for politicians, bureaurcrats and policemen anymore…..This is why

  149. drew says:

    Drive a truck, and you’ll understand the importance of drivers stopping where they are supposed to. This issue concerns safety, not “big brother”. If drivers would obey traffic laws in the first place, cameras would not be necessary!

    1. phenrod says:

      The ‘issue’ is money, and more power for government. While you weren’t watching, city councils, state offices, and congressional staffers are plotting ways to fleece citizens more and more. What other country has local, state and federal income taxes, fees for every interaction of citizens with government agencies, and numerous other revenue sources? Citizens must get involved to fight this abuse.

  150. B Cyclist says:

    It’s about time these idiots that stop on the crosswalk are fined……

  151. Awesome says:

    Oh boooo hoooo!!! Crybabies. This is what we wanted brothers! The chosen one and his buddies have instilled a big brother mentality that will last for DECADES. At it was all possible thanks to the useful idiots of this country.

    THANK YOU!!!!

  152. scott says:

    Every citizens gets the government they deserve; vote the clowns out of office and change the law.

  153. joe says:

    Bolingbrook, IL had these a few years ago until enough people complained…then the city got rid of them…if enough people complain and fight the tickets, the city will do away with them.

  154. Iambic PentaMaster says:

    Liberals love those white lines,
    (Pardon me whilst I opines),
    The leftist mayor,
    Wannabe player,
    Says shut up and pay your fines!

  155. Rod Anders says:

    Fraud and theft.

  156. Rod Anders says:

    I will NEVER move to Denver again !!!

  157. siylence says:

    Actually wanted to visit Colorado one day…but any state that has these kind of ridiculous traffic laws will not receive my tourism. It’s stressful enough just driving with the stupid red light cameras without having to worry about militaristic technicalities.

  158. Trace says:

    More petty ante nuisance socialist government oppression. This govt needs to be put in its place. Many of the people who stopped might otherwise have gone through . Govt is uspposed to b e OUR SERVANT, providing the common defense. THey havve long exceeded their bounds and need to be slapped down to size and their salaires and perkis cut in half or less. Put those bureaucrats out in the economy and let them work for a living

  159. IGetItAlready says:

    So my Mexi friends, the moral of the story is sneak into our country illegally. Dump your anchor babies on our soil or as close to the fence as you can get. Bring your family and friends and we’ll pay you and support you all for life.

    But I swear on all things holy you S.O.B., if you EVER touch your tires to the crosswalk line your ass is OURS!!!

  160. Buck Ofama says:

    these g0ddamned c0cksuckers.

    i think these photo-lights cause accidents because they force sudden stops.

    1. Machismo says:

      HA HA HA HA! Speak it as you sees it!

  161. Silhouette says:

    Thieves…the lot of them. When they send you a picture of your car touching the white line….send the S.O.B.s a picture of $75.00.

  162. Ranger01 says:

    Denver, The city of the Gestapo!

  163. phenrod says:

    One fine day citizens will realize the government has resorted to tyranny to keep and expand its power and money. This has happened because hard-working citizens have been busy supporting their families an enjoying their prosperity while leaving governance to the liberals (communists, socialists, statists). Fortunately there is a solution: get involved. Join a local tea party or other conservative group. Don’t just vote, but encourage everyone on your block and your relatives to vote to. Explain to them why it is so important. Obama is implementing socialist policies like cap and trade through agencies (EPA) because he knows elected representatives (Congress) won’t pass it. Enough Tea-Party backed elected representatives is a start to defeating the liberals and that means Democrats. Start now to defeat BHO in 2012.

  164. George1 says:

    What if an ambulance comes up behind you while you are waiting for the light to change. Do you pull up ,break the law and cross the line, and get a ticket?….. . or do you just make the patient wait until the light changes?

    1. greenday says:

      Learn what the driving laws or, here is an idea GO TO A DRIVING SCHOOL to learn, and stop driving until you know wht the laws are.

  165. gary gooddriver says:

    If there was a second line painted after the first line, and the law was that a vehicle could optionally stop before the first line but absolutely must stop before the second line, most of you knuckleheads would STILL driver over the second line. And you know it. So stop it with the parsing of the meaning of “at”. Bottom line is you want a pass for breaking a law that you don’t want to obey. Because you are all traffic engineers and know all about intersection safety. And when a city decides to crack down on your irresponsibility and busts you your innate reaction is to lash out at everything and everyone but yourself. Sorry but we’re a nation of laws not liberals. Go occupy Canada.

  166. chris says:

    The writers of this law used the word “before” to desribe where to stop in relation to a crosswalk and an intersection. They didn’t say stop “at” the crosswalk or stop “at” the intersection. However, they did say stop at the line. Had they intended you to stop before the line it would say stop before the line. By using different words, the writers gave the words different and distinct meanings and therefore, stoping on the line could mean stoping at the line as could stoping before the line or stoping after the line. My point is that had they intended at to mean before the law would say before.

    1. gary gooddriver says:

      Congratulations, you’ve just defeated your own argument. If “at” could mean stopping over the line is acceptable then at what point over the line are you no longer stopped “at” the line? One inch? One foot? Ten feet? If it’s a subjective matter of judgment as you suggest then the authority has obviously judged that “at” means “not over” since that’s when the cameras activate. See how easy common sense is?

      But it’s irrelevant because nobody reads the traffic laws. Instead, people operate by what they interpret the traffic symbols to mean. And people know they shouldn’t cross the intersection lines at stop lights just like they know they shouldn’t pass over a double yellow line. But they do anyway because they don’t care about the traffic rules that inconvenience them. Then when they get busted they convert instantly from anarchists to constitutionists. If people would do what they know is right all the time the world would be a better place and traffic cameras would cost more than they brought in and would go away.

      1. chris says:

        That is my point, “at” could mean anything. They have chosen for it to mean before in some cases and a few inches over in others.

        “When we review the violation image and the front tire is (only inches away from) the stop bar, we will not issue the citation,” said Denver Police Dept. Photo Enforcement Supervisor Ted Porras.

        The term “at” is vague as it does not describe a particular distinct location, however, had they used the term “before” as they did in relation to the crosswalk and intersection it would be much more clear and properly put the public on notice as to what is allowed and what isn’t. I presume that if what we all do what we know is right is reffering to what is right and what is wrong according to your morality. See how easy common sense is?

  167. Jsmith says:

    How ’bout if instead of whining, you stop before you cross the white line ? Good lord, people. Take responsibility for your actions. This is a skill you can master.

    1. Don Bags says:

      lol…sad that it has to be stated. Sad but true.

    2. moreco2 says:

      You.are.an.idot.

  168. Don Bags says:

    Oh my God….

    It’s really simple…it is against the law to block the crosswalk at a red light. Period. When I took driver’s ed that was taught. We all knew it. When I was learning to drive the instructor even told me not to get too close to the crosswalk…give the pedestrians some room to breath.

    I’ve ran across crosswalks where idiot drivers almost hit you because they think it’s okay to go beyond the line, and aren’t used to some pedestrian dashing up in front of them faster than normal. It is my right to run in a crosswalk that’s green my way. It is not a right for a stupid driver to almost hit me because he forgot how to properly control his vehicle.

    So get over people. I’m not in favor of a nanny state. And not being able to uniformly enforce all ticky-tacky laws doesn’t mean you get to break whatever ticky-tacky law you like. They’ve found a way to enforce this law and so they implemented it. So what?

    1. moreco2 says:

      You.are.an.idiot.

  169. MrGrinch says:

    Often the sensors that turn the light green are misplaced and beyond the white line. I’d bet the farm this is where they will place the cameras!

  170. DenverCousin says:

    I got a ticket and in the photos I was over the line. I stopped as required and rolled forward to make a right turn on red. There were no pedestrians in a 3 block radius. I have not had a traffic ticket in over 30 years.

    There should be a sign required at each intersection where there are cameras stating that you will be ticketed if you cross the line, Not unlike the signs required by photo speed radar when they are operating. It’s an expensive and unevenly applied fine, clearly just a revenue generator.

    This is like Speed traps of old. Just a revenue source. This specific law is made just as a revenue source and justified by safety concerns. I hope the new Mayor and Judges see all these comments.

  171. Greenday says:

    Get off your soap boxes people. There are RULES OF THE ROAD when it comes to driving. If you don’t know what the RULES OF THE ROAD are then I suggest you learn them, by either getting a drivers manual at your local drivers license office, read it online at there website, or here is a thought GO TO A DRIVING SCHOOL. Every thing you do there are rules, work, home ect. and you need to follow the rules. Having a drivers license is a priviledge!!! There is a reason why you are suppose to stop behind the stop line, and no the intersection does not start after the stop line. That space is for a pedestrian, you know those people that like or have to walk somewhere. If you stop in the space for a pedestrian then you are taking the right away from the pedestrian. Maybe that pedestrian is your kid walking to school or home from school, and some yahoo stops in the space that they are suppose to cross the street. Now they have to walk out into traffic to get around you. Now your kid gets hit by a car because this person stopped on the crosswalk. How would you feel???? If you don’t like the driving laws there is a civil way to change them. Remember back in high school when you learned about government. Don’t be on a soap box and re-write the law.

  172. Jimbo Limbo says:

    This is revenue generation, 100%. In places (all over the country) where these lights are not making money (thereby supposedly making the behavior of drivers more safe), the cameras are moved, or removed. If they do not generate a certain revenue, the company that runs them has the right to move or remove them- check out the contracts- most of them promise a guaranteed amount and % of tickets issued, and dollar amounts collected. It is a scam, plain and simple.

  173. stan says:

    How they will fine people in winter time?DAAAAAA?

  174. Al says:

    In Alaska, during the 90’s, they tried using speed detectors which flash a picture of people speeding. People starting to take it to court and had lawyers. Come to find out that due to Alaska Constitution, only law enforcement officers can give out tickets. I wonder if Colorado has such a bill stating that only law enforcement officers can write tickets. If that is the case, a good lawyer might be able to stop these machines from being use. After all, they are not a law enforcement officer.

  175. Bootsie says:

    So I have a question. We got one of these tickets. The car is titled under the name of a trust account. The ticket was mailed to a person, but to the trust. How can a trust be ticketed for this? They can’t pin this on a driver. Also according to the Colorado Constitution, these tickets must be PERSONALLY handed to the driver within 90 of the alleged violation, otherwise it is automatically dismissed. So what happens if one does not responded other than sending to a collection agency. And if after 90 days of not being personally served, does that nullify any attempt to collect payment?

  176. Bob mino says:

    These days,it is common, given the crowded roads and irregular pace of traffic, to make a judgement as to barely run a red light or to brake hard and stop short. Those that stop short of the intersection instead of risking going through should be commended, not fleeced. In these situations you can’t always stop clear of the crosswalk even though you know it is the right thing to do. Call the mayor. If he won’t stop this, vote him and his party out!

  177. conserned serf says:

    hoodie and pipe cutter….

  178. Concerned Serf says:

    Hoodie and Pipe Cutter…

  179. LUTHER G. BROSSA says:

    Until you’re ready to put your life on the line, shut your blow-holes and role-over for more of the same. If I’ve done something wrong, then I own up to it. If I haven’t, I make them burn-off thousands in court and incarceration costs. When I’ve personally encountered such abuse by so-called law-enforcement, I ask them to put the cuffs on my wrists and purposely do the time in county jail. It’s all about enriching themselves at the expense of your fear. Become fearless and watch how quick they move on…

  180. Jeff Scott says:

    COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE PART OF THE JOBS BILL WE HEAR SO MUCH ABOUT?

  181. Free Will says:

    What right does the system have to tamper with Free Will? Its playing with fire.

  182. moreco2 says:

    ANOTHER GOOD REASON TO STAY OUT OF THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF DENVER!

  183. hombre says:

    dont pay the fine,you have a right to face your accuser.

  184. Anonymous says:

    Ya if u r going to get a fine.. U should just keep driving thru.

  185. Sue Cole says:

    I received one of these tickets but lost in court for a $60 fine. There were no pedestrians at risk or otherwise in the photos. It showed brake lights being applied as the very short light was making it difficult to stop with my very large dogs in the van. My husband, retired Police Sgt made the comment that he never knew of any officer who would give such a petty ticket, including himself (31 yrs on the job), but the City of Denver knows full well that this isn’t a safety issue. It IS a revenue issue. We just came back from another vacation and note clearly that light cycles in Colorado, specifically Denver, are too short for safe driving. Perhaps our state reps ought to be working on this extortion of the public! So typically Denver!!!

  186. Cincinnatus says:

    They do this because we have allowed government to become oppressive.

  187. Proof Negative says:

    I’m sure next they will have ordinances about not cooking Halal during Ramadan.
    Or maybe your kid is talking too loud in the back seat.

    I’ll be discussing tyranny with loony laws & such tonight on my show on Freedomizer Radio… 7pm-10pm MST/ 6pm-9pm PST. http://www.freedomizerradio.com

    I hope more people can stand up to the tyranny we are facing. We have lost our way because we do not challenge the Elites.

  188. Martin Fee says:

    If your getting a ticket anyway might as well just blow off the light and do as you wish. I would. If I am going to pay for a crime you can bet your life I WILL be actually guilty of it

  189. J.D. says:

    There are several ways to get around a speeding ticket. Did you know that a police officer must be certified annually to shoot radar, and if the certification lapses well… Learn these tips, tricks, and secrets and how to use them yourself. Some even may or may not be known to expensive lawyers. Check out this guide written by attorneys to protect your rights and save you money. Traffic Ticket Secrets!

  190. Fifth Horseman says:

    Then stop.. Stop Dead behind the White Line. If its yellow stop. Only move on green. Tie up traffic. Grid lock the city.
    At election time vote the Mayor out of office, change the city government. Tie up the city e-mails.
    Read books from Paladin Press.

  191. Greg Squire says:

    Red light running (and speeding) is out of control! The police can’t be everywhere so alternative is there? If you don’t want the ticket or the fine then stop behind the line and slow down. This would also stop the city from making money off of you…

  192. orabeway says:

    get chanel 2011 and check coupon code available

  193. Mike says:

    It’s all about the revenue, control, and the power trip. It’s not safety or any other reason, although they will claim it is. It’s BS, and they know it. The more power we give them, the more they wish to take. Come on is this truly an issue that needs addressing? One would think that we, (as a government) have much bigger fish to fry than this petty bs. Can you imagine the tax dollars spent on purchasing, installing, maintaining, and even worse monitoring these cameras? All so we can give someone a $250 ticket for crossing a little line. Is the cost truly worth the benefit on the premise of “safety”? It certainly is ONLY for he revenue. It is not certainly cost effective for the safety aspect that is for sure. If you try and make that argument, ask yourself, is the overall cost of this worth the EXTREMELY rare case of an accident caused by someone creeping over a white line by mere inches. I would challenge you to crunch the numbers and show them.

    Life is somewhat risky, we can’t put a condom on everyone.

    This is an example of the New World Order taking over your lives.

    In the end, we let them get to this point and only we can strip them of this over- indulgent power.

  194. how to get traffic for free says:

    You really make it appear really easy along with your presentation but I in finding this topic to be really something which I feel I’d by no means understand. It sort of feels too complicated and very wide for me. I am looking forward in your subsequent publish, I’ll try to get the dangle of it!

  195. Poetry says:

    A person necessarily lend a hand to make critically posts I would state. That is the first time I frequented your website page and up to now? I surprised with the analysis you made to make this actual publish incredible. Magnificent job!

  196. מצלמות תנועה says:

    I delight in, lead to I discovered just what I was looking for. You’ve ended my four day lengthy hunt! God Bless you man. Have a great day. Bye

  197. krazy coupon says:

    A person necessarily lend a hand to make significantly posts I’d state. This is the first time I frequented your website page and so far? I surprised with the analysis you made to make this actual publish incredible. Great job!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

More From CBS Denver

JonBenét Ramsey Docuseries
DAY OF SERVICE

Listen Live

AM/FM Stations

Featured Shows & Multimedia